Discussion:
[PVE-User] VDI on Proxmox anyone?
Hermann Himmelbauer
2015-09-23 15:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone implemented a virtual desktop infrastructure
(VDI) / MS-Windows Desktops with Proxmox and if yes, any guidelines of
how to do this?

Best Regards,
Hermann
--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
Matthew Ross
2015-09-23 15:57:42 UTC
Permalink
I would be interested in this as well.


--Matthew Ross
Ephrata School District <http://www.ephrataschools.org/>
Phone: 509-754-7228 <+15097547228>
Google Voice: 205-378-9456 <+12053789456>
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone implemented a virtual desktop infrastructure
(VDI) / MS-Windows Desktops with Proxmox and if yes, any guidelines of
how to do this?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
Dimitris Beletsiotis
2015-09-29 13:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

For VDI on proxmox you can use Spice protocol/console, for more info see
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/SPICE
Win7 desktop is working perfectly stable and is fine for basic office usage.
Audio works fine, youtube streaming is problematic for me.

If you have many workstations you can use ZFS storage with deduplication
enabled to save big on storage needs.

Regards,
Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Matthew Ross
I would be interested in this as well.
--Matthew Ross
Ephrata School District <http://www.ephrataschools.org/>
Phone: 509-754-7228 <+15097547228>
Google Voice: 205-378-9456 <+12053789456>
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone implemented a virtual desktop infrastructure
(VDI) / MS-Windows Desktops with Proxmox and if yes, any guidelines of
how to do this?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
Hermann Himmelbauer
2015-09-29 14:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Hello,
For VDI on proxmox you can use Spice protocol/console, for more info
see https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/SPICE
Win7 desktop is working perfectly stable and is fine for basic office usage.
Audio works fine, youtube streaming is problematic for me.
If you have many workstations you can use ZFS storage with deduplication
enabled to save big on storage needs.
Thanks for info, very interesting!

Is youtube not working due to the network speed, or are there generally
problems with video compression/transfer via SPICE?

What I moreover would like to know is how you do updates on the Win7
desktops - do you do this on each single machine or do you somehow do
these updates on a "golden image" from where you clone your current
working image?

Best Regards,
Hermann
--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
Dimitris Beletsiotis
2015-09-30 13:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Is youtube not working due to the network speed, or are there generally
problems with video compression/transfer via SPICE?
Youtube is working but not like the native experience (there are some
glitches in audio and video).
I see 50-70 Mbps net traffic between the spice-server (proxmox) and the
spice-client when youtube video is running, I consider this too high.
Normal traffic is around 1-2 Mbps and some times is reaching 10 Mbps.
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
What I moreover would like to know is how you do updates on the Win7
desktops - do you do this on each single machine or do you somehow do
these updates on a "golden image" from where you clone your current
working image?
To accomplish above with proxmox I believe that you need to use the linked
clones feature (I have not tested in production), see:
https://www.proxmox.com/en/news/press-releases/proxmox-ve-3-0-released
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/VM_Templates_and_Clones

Just tried a simple test:


​
-Create a template from an existing win7 image to use as the base image,
vmid 301
-Create a linked clone from the above for a user, vmid 302
-Create a full clone from vmid 301 to update the base image (e.g. perform
software updates), vmid 303
-Create a linked clone from the above to update the image to the user, vmid
303

As you can see below sizes of linked clones are very low (it always depends
to the size of changes applied) compared to the base image of 100G.
The time required to create the linked clones from the template is few secs.

./301:
total 82G
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 101G Sep 30 13:02 base-301-disk-1.qcow2
./302:
total 210M
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 210M Sep 30 13:47 vm-302-disk-1.qcow2
./303:
total 81G
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 100G Sep 30 13:36 base-303-disk-1.raw
./304:
total 307M
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 307M Sep 30 13:47 vm-304-disk-1.qcow2

Best Regards,
Dimitris
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Hello,
For VDI on proxmox you can use Spice protocol/console, for more info
see https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/SPICE
Win7 desktop is working perfectly stable and is fine for basic office
usage.
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Audio works fine, youtube streaming is problematic for me.
If you have many workstations you can use ZFS storage with deduplication
enabled to save big on storage needs.
Thanks for info, very interesting!
Is youtube not working due to the network speed, or are there generally
problems with video compression/transfer via SPICE?
What I moreover would like to know is how you do updates on the Win7
desktops - do you do this on each single machine or do you somehow do
these updates on a "golden image" from where you clone your current
working image?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
Angel Docampo
2015-10-05 07:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi there!

I have set up proxmox as VDI infrastructure for a while and it works
great. While the experience is quite good on enterprise environments, is
true that online videos are too expensive in network terms.

What I'm using to connect to the VDIs is x2go TCE
(http://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/wiki:advanced:tce:install), is based on
nx and it's jpeg compression or whatever it uses reduces it's bandwidth
to a level you can connect even through a DSL connection from home.
Highly recommended to test it out. Online videos, far from perfect, are
pretty less laggy than on spice.

Regards,
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Hello,
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Is youtube not working due to the network speed, or are there generally
problems with video compression/transfer via SPICE?
Youtube is working but not like the native experience (there are some
glitches in audio and video).
I see 50-70 Mbps net traffic between the spice-server (proxmox) and
the spice-client when youtube video is running, I consider this too high.
Normal traffic is around 1-2 Mbps and some times is reaching 10 Mbps.
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
What I moreover would like to know is how you do updates on the Win7
desktops - do you do this on each single machine or do you somehow do
these updates on a "golden image" from where you clone your current
working image?
To accomplish above with proxmox I believe that you need to use the
https://www.proxmox.com/en/news/press-releases/proxmox-ve-3-0-released
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/VM_Templates_and_Clones
​
-Create a template from an existing win7 image to use as the base
image, vmid 301
-Create a linked clone from the above for a user, vmid 302
-Create a full clone from vmid 301 to update the base image (e.g.
perform software updates), vmid 303
-Create a linked clone from the above to update the image to the user,
vmid 303
As you can see below sizes of linked clones are very low (it always
depends to the size of changes applied) compared to the base image of
100G.
The time required to create the linked clones from the template is few secs.
total 82G
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 101G Sep 30 13:02 base-301-disk-1.qcow2
total 210M
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 210M Sep 30 13:47 vm-302-disk-1.qcow2
total 81G
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 100G Sep 30 13:36 base-303-disk-1.raw
total 307M
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 307M Sep 30 13:47 vm-304-disk-1.qcow2
Best Regards,
Dimitris
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Hello,
For VDI on proxmox you can use Spice protocol/console, for more info
see https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/SPICE
Win7 desktop is working perfectly stable and is fine for basic
office usage.
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
Audio works fine, youtube streaming is problematic for me.
If you have many workstations you can use ZFS storage with
deduplication
Post by Dimitris Beletsiotis
enabled to save big on storage needs.
Thanks for info, very interesting!
Is youtube not working due to the network speed, or are there generally
problems with video compression/transfer via SPICE?
What I moreover would like to know is how you do updates on the Win7
desktops - do you do this on each single machine or do you somehow do
these updates on a "golden image" from where you clone your current
working image?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
--
*Angel Docampo
*
*Datalab Tecnologia, s.a.*
Castillejos, 352 - 08025 Barcelona
Tel. 93 476 69 14 - Ext: 114
Mob. 670.299.381
Hermann Himmelbauer
2015-10-05 12:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angel Docampo
Hi there!
I have set up proxmox as VDI infrastructure for a while and it works
great. While the experience is quite good on enterprise environments, is
true that online videos are too expensive in network terms.
What I'm using to connect to the VDIs is x2go TCE
(http://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/wiki:advanced:tce:install), is based on
nx and it's jpeg compression or whatever it uses reduces it's bandwidth
to a level you can connect even through a DSL connection from home.
Highly recommended to test it out. Online videos, far from perfect, are
pretty less laggy than on spice.
Very interesting, thanks! I'd like to know how you set up the VDI -
simply as a single-instance installation? Or do you have some kind of
setup with a cloned golden image or the like?

Btw.: Why not use the simple Remote Desktop, which is already integrated
in Windows? Is the latest RDP protocol not already highly optimized,
especially for video and the like?

Best Regards,
Hermann
--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
Angel Docampo
2015-10-05 13:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I forgot to say we mainly use Linux as desktops, so no need to
golden image as linux is multi-user, so I need only to upgrade one VM.
We have some windows server with terminal services and with some
windows-only software on them, but as said, VDI infrastructure relys on
linux desktops ;)

Anyway, you can have windows VM and access through a thinclient booting
x2go (or other lightweight linux distro bootable via PXE) and access
your windows VDI throught rdesktop instead of x2go client, I've just
tried the same youtube video both in windows and in linux and while in
linux trought x2go protocol the video seems smoother while not in full
screen, seems that rdesktop protocol in windows handles full screen
videos a bit better... anyway, in a enterprise environment, where
watching videos is sporadical and they can be seen perfectly in a
windowed size, all virtual environments, from KVM to commercial, offers
a pretty but limited performance.

As you can see, my approach is different from yours: instead to have one
VM for each users (even each VM is a linked clone from a template) I
have one VM for many users, one linux and one windows. In linux is free
and in windows I must use TS licenses (well, if you're legal, you should
use them also in windows clones).

The benefeits in having several users on the same VM is shared memory,
resources from the VM are shared amongst the users, but in echange
having a machine-user ratio of 1:1 you can isolate the processes, in
both approaches, you only must maintain only one VM.
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Post by Angel Docampo
Hi there!
I have set up proxmox as VDI infrastructure for a while and it works
great. While the experience is quite good on enterprise environments, is
true that online videos are too expensive in network terms.
What I'm using to connect to the VDIs is x2go TCE
(http://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/wiki:advanced:tce:install), is based on
nx and it's jpeg compression or whatever it uses reduces it's bandwidth
to a level you can connect even through a DSL connection from home.
Highly recommended to test it out. Online videos, far from perfect, are
pretty less laggy than on spice.
Very interesting, thanks! I'd like to know how you set up the VDI -
simply as a single-instance installation? Or do you have some kind of
setup with a cloned golden image or the like?
Btw.: Why not use the simple Remote Desktop, which is already integrated
in Windows? Is the latest RDP protocol not already highly optimized,
especially for video and the like?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
*Angel Docampo
*
*Datalab Tecnologia, s.a.*
Castillejos, 352 - 08025 Barcelona
Tel. 93 476 69 14 - Ext: 114
Mob. 670.299.381
Lindsay Mathieson
2015-10-06 06:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angel Docampo
Anyway, you can have windows VM and access through a thinclient booting
x2go
Does it support Dual Fullscreen monitors (Client).
--
Lindsay
Angel Docampo
2015-10-06 07:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angel Docampo
Anyway, you can have windows VM and access through a thinclient
booting x2go
Does it support Dual Fullscreen monitors (Client).
No, it can full screen on one single display or use N physical displays
as one virtual display, that last could do the trick, but if you
maximize a window....well it will expand through the N displays... :S

I do not know if by modifying the Xorg on the VDI to explicitly set up
two monitors can be doable, but I doubt.

Spice do the job better here, as it connects to the console, there is no
problem to connect to the :0, :1 or whatever...
Post by Angel Docampo
--
Lindsay
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
--
*Angel Docampo
*
*Datalab Tecnologia, s.a.*
Castillejos, 352 - 08025 Barcelona
Tel. 93 476 69 14 - Ext: 114
Mob. 670.299.381
Dimitris Beletsiotis
2015-10-06 11:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,



Correct me if I am wrong but below solutions (Windows TS and Linux X
clients) are not VDI with Proxmox.


Windows Terminal services and Linux X desktops are totally different and
can be implemented on every virtualization platform (or bare metal).


The advantage of using Proxmox with Spice is the integration between the
virtualization environment and the (thin) client's desktop/experience.

VDI is more appealing on platforms like VMware Horizon where desktop and
applications are virtualized and management of images is much easier (with
high cost of course :-) )


Best Regards,

Dimitris Beletsiotis




*From:* pve-user [mailto:pve-user-***@pve.proxmox.com] *On Behalf Of *Angel
Docampo
*Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 16:20
*To:* Hermann Himmelbauer <***@qwer.tk>; PVE User List <
pve-***@pve.proxmox.com>
*Subject:* Re: [PVE-User] VDI on Proxmox anyone?



Oh, I forgot to say we mainly use Linux as desktops, so no need to golden
image as linux is multi-user, so I need only to upgrade one VM. We have
some windows server with terminal services and with some windows-only
software on them, but as said, VDI infrastructure relys on linux desktops ;)

Anyway, you can have windows VM and access through a thinclient booting
x2go (or other lightweight linux distro bootable via PXE) and access your
windows VDI throught rdesktop instead of x2go client, I've just tried the
same youtube video both in windows and in linux and while in linux trought
x2go protocol the video seems smoother while not in full screen, seems that
rdesktop protocol in windows handles full screen videos a bit better...
anyway, in a enterprise environment, where watching videos is sporadical
and they can be seen perfectly in a windowed size, all virtual
environments, from KVM to commercial, offers a pretty but limited
performance.

As you can see, my approach is different from yours: instead to have one VM
for each users (even each VM is a linked clone from a template) I have one
VM for many users, one linux and one windows. In linux is free and in
windows I must use TS licenses (well, if you're legal, you should use them
also in windows clones).

The benefeits in having several users on the same VM is shared memory,
resources from the VM are shared amongst the users, but in echange having a
machine-user ratio of 1:1 you can isolate the processes, in both
approaches, you only must maintain only one VM.

On 05/10/15 14:02, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote:

Am 05.10.2015 um 09:44 schrieb Angel Docampo:

Hi there!



I have set up proxmox as VDI infrastructure for a while and it works

great. While the experience is quite good on enterprise environments, is

true that online videos are too expensive in network terms.



What I'm using to connect to the VDIs is x2go TCE

(http://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/wiki:advanced:tce:install), is based on

nx and it's jpeg compression or whatever it uses reduces it's bandwidth

to a level you can connect even through a DSL connection from home.

Highly recommended to test it out. Online videos, far from perfect, are

pretty less laggy than on spice.



Very interesting, thanks! I'd like to know how you set up the VDI -

simply as a single-instance installation? Or do you have some kind of

setup with a cloned golden image or the like?



Btw.: Why not use the simple Remote Desktop, which is already integrated

in Windows? Is the latest RDP protocol not already highly optimized,

especially for video and the like?



Best Regards,

Hermann
--
*Angel Docampo*

*Datalab Tecnologia, s.a.*

Castillejos, 352 - 08025 Barcelona

Tel. 93 476 69 14 - Ext: 114
Mob. 670.299.381
Hermann Himmelbauer
2015-10-06 11:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,____
__ __
Correct me if I am wrong but below solutions (Windows TS and Linux X
clients) are not VDI with Proxmox.__
Windows Terminal services and Linux X desktops are totally different and
can be implemented on every virtualization platform (or bare metal).
The advantage of using Proxmox with Spice is the integration between the
virtualization environment and the (thin) client's desktop/experience.
VDI is more appealing on platforms like VMware Horizon where desktop and
applications are virtualized and management of images is much easier
(with high cost of course :-) )
Exactly. And that was my initial question - if anyone has any idea of
how to implement this with Proxmox or if he already has done this.

AFAIK Redhat provides some kind of KVM/SPICE-based solution, although I
doubt that it's ready for production?

Best Regards,
Hermann
--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
Angel Docampo
2015-10-07 08:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Hi there,____
__ __
Correct me if I am wrong but below solutions (Windows TS and Linux X
clients) are not VDI with Proxmox.__
Windows Terminal services and Linux X desktops are totally different and
can be implemented on every virtualization platform (or bare metal).
The advantage of using Proxmox with Spice is the integration between the
virtualization environment and the (thin) client's desktop/experience.
VDI is more appealing on platforms like VMware Horizon where desktop and
applications are virtualized and management of images is much easier
(with high cost of course :-) )
Exactly. And that was my initial question - if anyone has any idea of
how to implement this with Proxmox or if he already has done this.
AFAIK Redhat provides some kind of KVM/SPICE-based solution, although I
doubt that it's ready for production?
Best Regards,
Hermann
Well, I wrote about x2go client because I found it better in network
traffic than spice client itself.

Two years ago we implemented a very simple spice-based application which
asked for a credentials and connected to proxmox using those credentials
and then it shown the VMs where that user could connect to, as many
users only have one VM (or VDI in this case), the desktop showed directly.
That was done with bash and zenity mainly, on the forums is said how to
download the proxmox ticket from the command line and use it as
parameter to remote-viewer.

So, if you want a spice approach, it can be done by you with some work,
I do not know if Proxmox team will develop a desktop client for this in
the future, but it can be acomplished with some bash scripting or using
promox API.

Anyway, I reiterate, spice client is... "network expensive", and you'll
need a good connection to work properly, in a LAN it shouldn't be a
problem, but for remote clients is unbearable.
--
*Angel Docampo
*
*Datalab Tecnologia, s.a.*
Castillejos, 352 - 08025 Barcelona
Tel. 93 476 69 14 - Ext: 114
Mob. 670.299.381
Kyle Bruene
2015-09-24 13:35:20 UTC
Permalink
I have a Windows Terminal Services w/ Citrix running under Proxmox. Works fantastic. Nothing special you really need to do.

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Today's Topics:

1. VDI on Proxmox anyone? (Hermann Himmelbauer)
2. Re: VDI on Proxmox anyone? (Matthew Ross)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:50:00 +0200
From: Hermann Himmelbauer <***@qwer.tk>
To: pve-***@pve.proxmox.com
Subject: [PVE-User] VDI on Proxmox anyone?
Message-ID: <***@qwer.tk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone implemented a virtual desktop infrastructure
(VDI) / MS-Windows Desktops with Proxmox and if yes, any guidelines of how to do this?

Best Regards,
Hermann

--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:57:42 -0700
From: Matthew Ross <***@ephrataschools.org>
To: pve-***@pve.proxmox.com
Subject: Re: [PVE-User] VDI on Proxmox anyone?
Message-ID:
<CAH3gCF5dnw=csuZz+***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I would be interested in this as well.


--Matthew Ross
Ephrata School District <http://www.ephrataschools.org/>
Phone: 509-754-7228 <+15097547228>
Google Voice: 205-378-9456 <+12053789456>
Post by Hermann Himmelbauer
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone implemented a virtual desktop infrastructure
(VDI) / MS-Windows Desktops with Proxmox and if yes, any guidelines of
how to do this?
Best Regards,
Hermann
--
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
_______________________________________________
pve-user mailing list
http://pve.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user
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Hermann Himmelbauer
2015-09-29 14:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Bruene
I have a Windows Terminal Services w/ Citrix running under Proxmox. Works fantastic. Nothing special you really need to do.
Good to know, thanks.

However, I wonder if there's a solution without a terminal server, e.g.
like the following:

- One (or multiple) "golden image", where one configures some default
profile of the machine the user should have and where all successing
updates are done.
- From this image, all VDI machines are cloned, whereas thin
provisioning is used.
- The user then does a login to one of these cloned machines, whereas he
gets all personal data (profile) via e.g. roaming profiles or some other
means.

These cloned machines can be destroyed anytime and by simply cloning a
new one from the "golden image", all updates are available.

Any idea regarding this, especially concerning Proxmox?

Best Regards,
Hermann
--
***@qwer.tk
PGP/GPG: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
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